Per today's paper the, Its just like Clinton's pardons, are being said by the administration. Tomorrow, or tonight will they be saying this also? You can't say their parroting it, because they are the parrots brain. Usually the parrots's brain lets others do the talking. It seems they are getting lost in their lies. Or the mouthes have become a little unrelible.

Confusion to the enemy, why should they have it any differant than we do. 

RIVKIN: "... I think the mistake was made by the vindictive and out-of-control prosecutor who aligned the facts in such a way that the jury had no choice but to convict Mr. Libby."

Damn you, fact-aligning maniac!!

In other words he showed the facts and proved he was guilty, which is unless I am mistaken basically the definition of being a prosecuter and since Libby was a Republican that somehow equates to the prosecuter being vindictive and out of control, for doing his job. RIIIIIGHT. What a tool

"fact aligning maniac" was just about what i was thinking...

Ok, so there's no blue dress here to pique your interest...but this is a convicted criminal here.  You don't need evidence in an impeachment.  But you do need it in most US courts.  Thats why Starr quit and went to Pepperdine, and its also what convicted Scooter.

and pepperdine has been the recipient of tens of millions of dollars from richard mellon scaife.   who, and i'm sure this must be just a huge coincidence, funded the arkansas project in the early 90's, which dug up every piece of gossip and dirt, true and untrue, that could be found on the clintons.

"Parrots' brains" -- well, only if parrots periodically expel their brains from out their rectums.

RIVKIN could not get a job teaching Junior High Civics with his complete misunderstanding of bothe THE LAW and THE CONSTITUTION.

His bogus "interpretation" of what transpired in both the Clinton and the Libby cases is utterly irresponsible and incorrect. But he's not trying for a job where accuracy and intelligence and actual clear thinking are needed. He instead is a Rightwing Propagandist, who hope that just by SAYING something, that the American People might be fooled.

Rivkin, if he has any professional legal standing, should be TRIED for his factually inaccurate portrayals here, and if he cannot explain how his answers are true, he should be disbarred for malpractice.

Since this hack Rivkin has chosen to take a position as a "legal advisor" in public, do we citizens have "standing" to sue the phony for malpractice? I wonder if such a case could be made ... 

It is absolutely mind-boggling to me that there are STILL people ther claiming that Valerie Plame was not covert.  IT HAS BEEN PROVEN REPEATEDLY THAT SHE WAS.  What this shows is how powerfully dangerous the right-wing misinformation media has become.  We ignore them at our peril.  Thanks MMFA.

Nothing has been proven. Fitzgerald never charged anyone so it was never proven in a courtroom if she was covert. The only evidence presented was in the sentencing phase of Libby's trial. No evidence that she wasn't covert, which I am sure is piled to the ceiling, was presented to the court due to the fact no one charged with a crime of outing a covert agent.

The CIA says they considered her covert. That's not enough under the law. 

You prove yourself to be a charlatan and a shameless propgandist by continuing in the stubborn committment to this utterly ignorant meme. It HAS been proven. EVERYTHING doesnt have to be proven IN COURT. I already once cited the definition by the law in question and the CIA job summary that was entered into the Congressional record ABSOLUTLY proves she was in fact covert under that definition. She WAS covert, the CIA  WAS taking affirmative measures to protect her identity and she had travelled several times in the previous year under NOC cover. This proves you care NOTHING about facts, or objective reality. You care only for the propaganda. This needs to be said for its propaganda value therefore it doesnt make any difference to you at all that it is utterly ludicrous that it has been proven to be false you will just keep doing your propaganda parrot duty and repeating it anyway. You would be embarassing yourself IF you had the capacity for shame.

If anybody needs to go to jail, it is Richard Armitage. He is the one that leaked Plame's name to Bob Novak and the rest of the media.

Armitage, Rove, Libby, Cheney and Bush should all be in jail.

Even if that is true, and it might be, it doesnt change the FACT that Libby also leaked her identity. Nor does it have ANYTHING to do with Libby perjuring himself and obstructing justice

SOLON:

Valarie Plame/Wilson was indeed considered a covert agent, and her association with the CIA was classified.

HOWEVER, keep in mind that the statute by which the outing of a covert agent by a government official with a security clearance could be prosecuted is SERIOUSLY FLAWED, due to the fact that it was overseen by that partisan political hack Victoria Toensing. It is entirely possible that the law written by Toensing has so many vague requirements and esoteric unprovable "elements" that it is worthless (just as the GOP constantly proves).

Laws written by incompetents are often ruled "VOID for VAGUENESS" and cannot be used in any prosecutions (until the law can be written in a competent manner by competent writers of law). 

When faced with a convoluted and imprecise statute written by Toensing, it may well be that Fitzgerald decided his task there was impossible.

However, there is another more reliable and longstanding legal avenue that has been thusfar not pursued: These LEAKERS in the White House all took oaths to protect classified information. This charge may have been outside Fitzgerald's scope (the CIA limiting their complaint to violation of the "Toensing" law), but certainly it could be opened as a new investigation. 

"That's not enough under the law."

Did you go and read the law and did you read the CIA summary of her employment?

I guess when the CIA complained to bush that one of their operatives had been outed, it was just as a goof, because they didn't have anything better going on.

This whole thing was just a big misunderstanding.  Poor Scooter, the innocent victim of some bored CIA agent's inane prank.

"No evidence that she wasn't covert, which I am sure is piled to the ceiling, was presented to the court..."- leatherhelmet

You're sure of this based on...?

Again...as I posted to you on Tuesday:

There is a law which defines "covert" for the purpose of that law.  The CIA designates who is covert and who isn't under their employment.

These...are...two...separate..things.

One...has...nothing...to do..with...the other.

See, the CIA knows who they have designated as a covert operative and who they haven't.  They know what is classified and what is not.  The law is written by people outside of the CIA for purposes of prosecution of that very law.  It doesn't have to reflect any reality as to whether a person was actually covert or not.  It's not as if the CIA sends someone on secret missions all around the world, and the court can determine he or she wasn't covert for the purposes of prosecution and suddenly all those secret missions never took place.  It's not as if at that point people in the CIA are going to think "oops, we had their status as covert and classified.  We must have been wrong!"

Either try to refute that, or stop forwarding your dishonest conflation.  Please.

Brab, Can't you read? LH is "sure" that there's evidence "piled to the ceiling" that she wasn't covert, aren't his feelings enough?

First off Fitzgerald is probably the finest and most honest prosecutor we have had in years. Vindictive---hogwash, this man is a consummate professional and is a modern day Elliot Ness. He was recommended to the job by former Republican Senator Fitzgeral (no relation) of Illinois. The republicans and democrats here in Illinois cried to the powers that be in Washington because Prosecutor Fitzgerald is honest and will prosecute wrongdoing no matter to party affiliation. This powerful Illinois combine, which stretches to Washington spelled doom for Senator Fitzgerald's career as he was chastised by his own party. Thanks to the protective, vindictiva and idiotic cronyism of the R party, we now have Obama filling Former senator Fitzgerald's office in the US senate. Thank you.

 Leather - With that said, the REASON there have been no convictions regarding the outing of a covert CIA agent is BECAUSE of Scooter's lying and obstruction of justice. According to Fitzgerald, the convolution created by Libby's lies and obstruction made is impossible to charge the rest of the guilty parties with their high crimes, misdemeanors and treason.

Who cares, Chris?

Apparently, the pundits seem to wish that our judicial system worked on a mother/siblings basis where the defendent can plead guilty, not-guilty, nolo-contendre, and "...but he did it too!"

Judge: "Mr. Libby, I am sentencing you to time-out.  And no playstation, either, young man."

Libby: "But Billy didn't have to go to time out.  How come I have to go to time out?  It's NOT FAIR!!"

Bush: "Golly, June.  Don't you think you were a little hard on the Scooter today?  I mean, no playstation?  That seems harsh..."

the people who dismiss the gravity of this entire affair do so by one thing.  they lie.  they say plame wasn't covert.  they say that the whole thing comes down to a difference in the memories of tim russert and libby.  they say rove and libby did nothing wrong by releasing her identity.   and then they attack the wilson's personally, as david brooks of the new york times did.  the facts are that plame was covert.  that certification by the cia was accepted by the trial judge.   and it was far from a difference between russert and libby.   numerous reporters got calls from rove and libby outing plame.  it was an active coordinated campaign.   and the fact that rove and libby gave unauthorized persons classified material, plame's status, meant that their security clearances should have been lifted on the spot.   and in spite of that, rove, and libby until he was indicted, sits in the white house to this day.   to the cheers and admiration of the republican party and the conservative media.   and then there is the constant sinister refrain of plame "got wilson the job".   as if.   an unpaid trip to central africa to sit in a hotel room and wait for meetings?   where exactly did they benefit from that trip?  or is it the plain and simple truth that the wilsons are what they have always been, patriotic americans?   rove, libby, novak and all the other fellow traveler apologists for this administration of cutthroats aren't worthy to wipe their shoes.

What Clinton did was worse.

Bill Clinton was investigated for an actual crime of sexually harassing Paula Jones. He even paid Jones $850,000 to settle the case. After Clinton’s misconduct, he decided to remove himself from the roll of attorneys rather than get disbarred.

know what?   bring back the good ol days of balanced budgets, a president who can put a sentence together,  22 million jobs created,  and take away the nighmare of the last 6 years.   and jones' lawsuit was dismissed, because she claimed that she faced harrassment at work because she turned down clinton, but she got promotions and raises in her state job. 

News bombshell 1:  An investigation is not a conviction.

News bombshell 2:  A settlement is not a conviction.

News bombshell 3:  Libby was convicted.

I work for a company that recently settled a case while maintaining its innocence.  It happens all the time.

Now the conservatives can see why we raised a stink about Boortz's lie.  Today's far-right lie is tomorrow's "fact".

Was that one of those "frivolous lawsuits" you righties are always whining about?

Even if one were to assume I agree with this bilge (and the use of the word "bilge" should be an overly obvious clue that I don't) an old saying should put you to rights on this Clinton-did-it-too line of reasoning:  Two wrongs don't make a right, buck-o.

Dissent- the Paula Jones case was thrown out of court.

I know its iressitible for some to keep going back to Bill Clinton's Pandora's Box of women. He was never CONVICTED of sexual harassment.

Dis he show reckless poor judgement with various affairs with women? Yeah. He was a dawg.

Was this "moral" weakness exploited endlessly by his political "rivals." (enemies) Uh, yeah to the point of absurdity.

Was our national security ever compromised by Clinton's "affairs?" Not that I experienced.

Paula Jones had a complete make over courtesy of the "religious" right. The continued fascination with Bill Clinton's sex life is just plain creepy.

Anyhow the answer is NO- there was not a sexual harassment conviction of Bill Clinton.

Pay off? Again I think you should check into who was paying who.

Oh yeah, maybe track down Linda Tripp in your walk down memory lane. Now there's a sweetheart!

You sir are an idiot. Paula Jones sexual harassment is not even in the same league with violating national security, outing a covert agent to protect the lies being used to mislead the public into and illegal war.

 Too bad the lies of this administration didn't cost this country only $850,000.

None of our young men and women in uniform were killed or maimed as a result of Clinton's ALLEGED sexual harassment.

Oh and to prove you are an idiot, Libby was CONVICTED of a Federal Crime of perjury.  Big difference disstater.

What MMFA constantly leaves out is that most all the senators that voted for Clinton to be found not guilty didn't do it because they felt he hadn't lied, they did it because they didn't think it was enough of a crime to remove a president.

Good point.  If you ever find a person who claims that Clinton never lied, be sure to set them straight.

The whole thing was a sham from the beginning.  The republicans ram through an indictment because they had the numbers in the House.  They hunted Clinton for his entire stay in the White House and all they discovered was a lie about a BJ and they tried to hang him for it.

i remember clinton's press secretary, forget who, making the comment that it was like an annual spring rite for the republicans to call for clinton's impeachment on some charge. 

tell HARDBALL [hardball@msnbc.com] we want Dave Shuster as the new host. Fire the loud, uninformed, malaria ridden, boring moron known as Chris Matthews. We have had enough of his crap and want someone hosting HARDBALL who gives credibilty to the moniker ... HARDBALL.

Agreed.  Saw him hosting Hardball tonight (7/6) and give a grilling to that psuedo-intellectual Middle East "expert" (read neocon quisling) Fouad Ajami about his WSJ editorial comparing Libby to fallen US soldiers in Iraq.  Most entertaining.

Aside from the fact that Libby most definitely perjured himself in his testimony (just because Juduth Miller did not, on the three prior occassions that Libby revealed Plame's identity to her, reveal that information, well before Armitage found a much more willing and unprincipled Novak to do the administrations bidding,  that does not exonerate Libby's intent to "out" Valerue Plame to get back at Wlson for exposing the administrations lies about yellowcake uranium, at the bidding, of course, of Bush and Cheney) the issues over which Clinton lied and Libby lied are in no way morally equivalent. Libby lied to cover up his role in a shameful and illegal episode of totalitarian, thuggish government behavior. Clinton lied in a situation that never should have come before Congress, THAT WAS NOBODY"S BUSINESS, and in a  a situation that anybody, ECSPECIALLY THE SANCTIMONIOUS BRAYING DONKEYS OF THE RIGHT would have lied in. Will, Kristol and the like merely reveal their utter paucity of ethics in insisting that Libby should be pardoned while earlier calling for the impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton. Oh that this national nightmare would end.

I've been noticing that ever since the Libby commutation has exploded here, our friendly conservative posters have been sniping quite a bit.  They pop in a comment thread and drop some cannard about "Clinton lied, too" or "No underlying crime" blah, blah, blah, and then when everyone else responds with facts and stuff, they dissapear?

I know this has happened before, but the regularity of it is strange, no?  Normally, our more prodigious right-wing blowhards stick around for a while and defend themselves or post links to NewsMax or some other right-wing propaganda site to back up there claims, in other words, they try to make a point. With the Libby commutation, they just spout some talking point and bolt never to be heard from on that thread again.

I understand this, of course, because it proves undeniably, how weak there counter-arguments are.  They must realize that they cannot win this argument.  The run away thinking "Why must I carry water for this????!??"  When they know deep in(what remain of) their hearts, they know they don't have a leg to stand on.  They know they are just throwing sand to try and change the subject.

They know that they are on the wrong side on this one.  So, just admit it AA and Copious and Leather, et al.  This is a lost cause.  Move on to the Ann Coulter or BO threads where you can spout equally useless and easily refutable arguments, but at least you'll believe what you are writing.  You'll believe your own BS.  

It's the bigger picture that's being glossed over here, both in terms of what's being discussed in the MSM and how it's being reported. We're not dealing with some small-fry who is being 'left out to dry' for an unconfirmed crime while Armitage runs free, nor are we dealing with a simple "got you back!" action aimed at someone (Wilson) deemed to be a nuisance who was planting seeds of doubt about our rampup to the Iraq war. It is far bigger than that, and it is time we started talking about it with the largesse it deserves.

1. We're talking of Republicans outing an entire CIA network (Brewster-Jennings?) which was investigating and monitoring WMD and weapons proliferation throughout the Middle East, including Iran. This is not about "desk job, not undercover" Plame, this is about compromising a whole set of identities, contacts and intel. On purpose.

2. "But Armitage did it too! Why pick on Libby? No underlying crime!"-blah, blah, blah, you rightwing screech monkeys and non-investigative American press corps. Libby specifically obstructed Justice's investigation that was leading to persons *above* Armitage and himself; namely, the unelected president and his vice president. Which is precisely why our unelected leader couldn't even wait 400 minutes after Libby's report-to-jail status was confirmed to issue his shoddy (not by the book, and without consulting the Justice Dept.) commutation of Libby's sentence. The real reason why Bush couldn't wait any longer OR simply issue an early pardon, even though the appeals process is ongoing, is simple. With looming jail time confirmed, Libby was going to finally squeal like he should have when under oath. And, as several out there have noted, if Bush granted Libby a pardon last week or does so in the future, Libby loses his right to invoke/plead the 5th with regards to answering questions about Bush/Cheney in the leak affair.

In other words, Bush is now also guilty of obstructing justice in the continued coverup of partisan traitorous Republicans outing a CIA *network*, an act that jeopardizes the lives of the operatives and their contacts, compromises our intel, and puts at risk the lives of the servicemen and citizenry whose country needs that intel and network. We rely on ops like Brewster-Jennings to better monitor the global situation and defend ourselves, both from enemies abroad and now especially from the traitorous enemies at home; those who would undermine any credible evidence that disagreed with them, or in the absence of intel/info supporting their position, would stoop to fabricating and hyping and fearmongering to get their way. We have seen it in the runup to Iraq, and may now, with the absence of Plame's former network, see it in the future for any other neocon targets.

This isn't about Libby/Plame, it's about Bush/Cheney outing an entire CIA network.

When is someone going to differentiate between entertainment and real news? What goes for news today is one step up from the movie "Network."  I keep looking for "Sybil the Soothsayer" and "Vox Populi" I guess we do already have several "Mad Prophets of the Airways."

It all goes back to equal time and the Point-Counterpoint format and the gravitation to the extremes on air.  There may well be two or more sides of the important issues today but all we get half truth and spin. The fact that Rivkin was not telling the truth doesn't seem to matter anymore to Chris, Matt, Bill, or the myriad of news readers/celebs. The only thing that counts is how riled up they make the audience and that takes an extreme view. Unfortunately many people believe the lies and spin and obfuscation is reality. 

The real Hardball statement that should have been made to Rivkin is "This conviction and sentence of Scooter Libby has nothing to do with Bill Clinton  and has everything to do with getting to the truth of a cover up in the Executive Branch of our government in the outting of a covert operative, as stated by the C.I.A.